Screen capture concerns

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I am still concerned about the new screen capture that's coming.
I have email support a few times but the below issues still don't seem to be addressed and I want to know what Covenant Eyes feel about this....

Scrolling through Facebook feeds can sometimes reveal an image containing nudity that someone else has posted. If screen capture snaps this it can be misconstrued to my partner as me looking at these images?

The same can be said for other apps whereby you could stumble across a 'meme'or image and screen capture can snap this and send it.

Covenant Eyes has always been there to prevent people from willingly accessing sites they shouldn't be and it's worked. But the above concerns are not this, they aren't the intentions.
What's worse is that if there is any misrepresenting by the screen capture that's sent to your partner, this could cause more harm than good. You should understand that some couples could be very fragile, all it would take is some confusion around this to break someone.

The other concern is how my private info, childrens photos, and other privacy that has nothing to do with Covenant Eyes can be seen.

Unless covenant eyes has a satisfactory answer to how this is all dealt with then I fear we will be moving to another Christian accountability service.
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M

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Posted 3 months ago

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Zach

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Since you're asking, I have a few thoughts.

1. It's been made clear to me that the CE software only really works in the context of community. Therefore, if porn was accessed in an accidental way on my device (Facebook, memes, etc.), it should be easily cleared up via a follow-up conversation with my accountability partner.

2. As far as privacy concerns, the blurring effect from my experience does a great job providing the 'gist' of a screenshot without enough clarity to raise privacy concerns.
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M

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Hi,
See my detailed response to Annelise.
However, to address point 1....Why should a husband and wife have to keep clearing things up when there would be no need? You are presuming every couple may be ok with this, e.g....a wife may be at breaking point, all she needs is to see such things that her husband is not accountable for, thanks to covenant eyes. If bit meant that she has to panicky for a few hours until they chat, why should she have to do that? This can actually fuel discontent rather than the peace knowing any intention is prevented which is better.
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Annelise, Official Rep

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Hello M,

Thank you for your post and sharing your concerns. I would like to preface my response with that the current development of our Screen Accountability service is not meant supersede conversation and communication between a user and their Accountability Partner nor an attempt at being able to distinguish a user's intent. It's simply new technology meant to support our overall mission in an ever changing technological world. 

With your specific example I can certainly see how coming across a suggestive image within a Facebook news feed would be cause for concern. You weren't expecting it to be there or seeking it out. It's kind of the risk we put ourselves at with these social media sites. We have no control over what our friends will post. 

With that being said, our Screen Accountability technology was designed to capture a screenshot from a user's device every minute, roughly. The chance of the scenario you mentioned happening would be low. Furthermore the accidental clicking on an image or stumbling across an explicit photo is no different than the same situation happening with our current software. If you click on a link that leads to an suggestive or explicit website the Covenant Eyes URL reporting is still recording it and putting it on the report, even if you immediately close out of it. The only difference is a screenshot being reported versus a URL.

The intention of the user is something that no technology will ever be able to tell which is why a good Accountability Partner who is patient, consistent, unbiased, empathetic, and intentional along with strong communication is key. 

Our reports whether they contain screenshots or URLs are simply a tool at helping a user maintain accountability online or help an individual overcome a pornography addiction. Only the user knows their true intention and any accountability software is there to simply aide and support a user who has consciously made the decision to be held accountable. 

In response to your secondary concern about private information being seen, we do have two videos that I believe thoroughly explain our three level blurring technology that happens directly on your device to ensure no un-blurred images are available on our server.
 
The video for our Live Event that took place on February 4th can be found here: https://www.covenanteyes.com/screen-accountability-coming-soon/#
Our Live Event does include a segment showing our blurring technology on a variety of screenshots captured by our software. This segment can be found around the 17 minute mark.

A video with our CEO and VP of Customer Service addressing privacy concerns can be found here: https://vimeo.com/313003273
 
I hope this response helps to alleviate any concerns and please feel free to contact us with any further questions you may have. 

Best regards,
Annelise
(Edited)
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M

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Annelise,
Thank you for the detailed response.
Here is why your justification for my primary concern is not acceptable to me.

You state "our Screen Accountability service is not meant supersede conversation and communication between a user and their Accountability Partner nor an attempt at being able to distinguish a user's intent."

You are suggesting that having to talk about the awful coming across an explicit image is a good thing. Why? You are assuming couples don't mind having to address this subject. The prevention of the intention is better than addressing it, especially when it would be a misinterpretation by Covenant Eyes capturing an image that was never looked for.
Saying its a low risk it's captured as it's every minute ....there should be no risk.

You state "the accidental clicking on an image or stumbling across an explicit photo is no different than the same situation happening with our current software. If you click on a link that leads to an suggestive or explicit website the Covenant Eyes URL reporting is still recording it and putting it on the report, even if you immediately close out of it. The only difference is a screenshot being reported versus a URL."

That is just not true. I am not dumb enough to click on links I don't either know or intend to view. That is a will on my part. Whereas coming across an image on a news feed, or that a friend posts is something I have not generated and there is no intention from me. How can you say it is the same thing??

You state "The intention of the user is something that no technology will ever be able to tell which is why a good Accountability Partner who is patient, consistent, unbiased, empathetic, and intentional along with strong communication is key. "

To the contrary, I think it's fairly obvious if you type in an internet search or click on a known porn site. Covenant Eyes already does a good job of preventing this intention.

But this is the most concerning point you have made.....to suggest what an accountability partner should be like is pretty disgraceful. How do you presume how partners should be? Let's say your accountability partner is your wife. She has been through a lot, to the point where one thing could push her over the edge. The blast thing she needs to see is an image which was not the fault of her husband but Covenant Eyes snap shot it. She needs protecting from this not to have to 'talk' about it through her tears until she gets the relief that it was nothing?
How dare you think that it's ok. You are supposed to be there to help but it's as though you think you know the relationships of couples?

I'm sorry but for me this is dangerous to presume every person is happy to have to keep justifying images not being there's, and that wives need to see that regardless
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Chance

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"She has been through a lot, to the point where one thing could push her over the edge. The blast thing she needs to see is an image which was not the fault of her husband but Covenant Eyes snap shot it."

If this is the case, then you have a couple of options:
1) Have an accountability partner that is not your wife - if your wife is going to have issues seeing a potential screenshot (and it's honestly okay if she does), then you maybe should have a different accountability partner
2) Don't go to a site where you could potentially see nudity. If things are as bad as you say where she could have issues just from seeing a screenshot, then avoid those sites. If one image is going to send her over the edge then make that a very, very unrealistic possibility. That may mean you have to make a sacrifice. In my recovery journey my wife was devastated when I told her what was going on. So, if she saw an image show up in my history it would have been hurtful, but that would have also been the time that I myself would have needed to avoid the possibility of seeing an image.  That was also the time that I was even more careful than I am now (I'm still careful where I go but I wouldn't have done Facebook or Twitter 15 years ago).

On the few times where I have seen actual nudity on Facebook, I unfriended that person responsible. If I saw a couple of questionable images liked by the same person, I unfollowed that person. 

"To the contrary, I think it's fairly obvious if you type in an internet search or click on a known porn site. Covenant Eyes already does a good job of preventing this intention. "
What about those sites that are not known?

"The prevention of the intention is better than addressing it, especially when it would be a misinterpretation by Covenant Eyes capturing an image that was never looked for. 

I understand completely. But I think you're basing too much on "original" intention. But sometimes people stare at something they didn't intend to find. I could scroll through stuff on Facebook all day looking at somewhat bad images and the old CE wouldn't be as good at flagging it as the new CE would be. 

"Here is why your justification for my primary concern is not acceptable to me. "

I get your concerns, I've even brought up a similar point myself in my feedback, but you're scolding CE like they're a bad dog or something. If you don't like the software, use something else. 

"But this is the most concerning point you have made.....to suggest what an accountability partner should be like is pretty disgraceful. How do you presume how partners should be?"

I don't think anyone has stated unreasonable expectations in this conversation on what an accountability partner should be. As far as it being your wife, see my earlier comments.  

"How dare you think that it's ok. You are supposed to be there to help but it's as though you think you know the relationships of couples? "

No tool is going to be a 100% perfect for every person and every situation, and I'm not sure even CE would say that. You're not entitled to have CE completely to your liking. You're the one putting constraints on the situation,
1) They never said having your wife as an accountability partner is always the best option
2) They never said you would never have to make sacrifices in your own browsing behavior
3) They never said you need to have an accountability partner who would go ballistic at seeing a single questionable picture in your browsing history
4) They never even said you had to use their software.
(Edited)
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M

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Hello Chance....I'm not sure who you are fella, but your post addressing my points is not that helpful or realistic I'm afraid.
According to you, one should either swap your accountability partner, de-friend your friends, not use Facebook, or switch accountability software in order to accommodate the new changes for CE. Dont be so daft, I have a valid concern.

The whole point is to give feedback so they can hopefully address and take on board the concerns from existing users, rather than having to change what I do to safeguard any misinterpretation from CE software.

Let me say that currently the CE software works a treat for us. It is the deterrent needed and it's working.
Allow me to address your points of suggestion....

Firstly, my scenario for the wife who is the accountability partner, who may not need to see any image misinterpreted, was hypothetical. However, for you to simply suggest "find another accountability partner" may not be as easy for some and is not the answer. You are assuming anyone can just do that. You are avoiding the issue of how misenterpretation can add unnecessary fuel to something that wasn't there. And you really shouldn't give any opinion on how an accountability partner should be either. Thats not on debate here. Despite whatever situation you are in, don't profess to know enough about anyone elses.

You suggest I should de-friend friends or don't visit sites like Facebook/Twitter if I'm concerned something may pop up in my feed. This is why i am giving my feedback as this is not something I should have to do to embrace the new CE.
When I talk about images on Facebook for example, I refer to ones such as Memes which can be hilarious. There was one a friend posted with a cat about to pounce on a girls butt who was laying on the sofa face down because her boyfriend had a laser pen on one of her cheeks. So of course the cat was gonna go for it. Now, this is a naked butt. The question is would CE snapshot this as a nude pic? This kind of meme is not an issue for me. That's just an example

I dont know what you are referring to with regards to "what about unknown sites"? I can't speak for you, but I have no problem with unknown sites coz i dont go looking for them or click on links i dont know.....because I know for sure whatever it could be will get flagged so honestly, why would I? Like i said, CE already does a good job of preventing this for us.

When I am expressing my concerns about CE to simply say to me "If you don't like the software, use something else" is a stupid thing to say. Especially when I already said in my initial post that we will be moving to another one if my concerns are not alleviated. Did you even read that bit?
So I'm fully aware of that. But that's not constructive or helpful advice thanks, and will be my last resort.

Lastly, i'm aware no software is 100%, although for us right now it pretty much is! It has worked; it's successful for us, and that's our testimony. So why shouldn't I suggest how I like it the way it is? Why shouldn't I express my concerns about the changes? I'm the consumer using and paying for it right now, and they've asked for feedback. How on earth am I putting restraints on it like you said??
Your last 4 points aren't worth addressing as they're plain unhelpful, silly and unnecessary fella.

I have a genuine valid concern. I value any constructive input on my concern, but don't start telling me how I should be like? Dont syart saying how a wife should be? You're almost bordering on judgemental. Please don't.
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Chance

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So I had my wife read what I wrote and she did say it came across as somewhat "cold", and I do agree with her. I do apologize for coming across that way, and I do agree my last 4 "suggestions" were unhelpful. I think I could have written what I wrote a lot better and more succinctly. 

I don't really have an issue with your feedback in itself. For a lot of people, CE works exactly as is, and you definitely raise valid points. For various reasons, I think Screen Accountability is the way to go but I can see your point of view too.  My issue was the way you represented your feedback, using terms like "how dare you", and "disgraceful", and "unacceptable". To me, these come across as somewhat emotionally charged terms and rhetoric that I don't think are helpful either. I stand by my comments in that I felt like you were scolding them. That being said, was it my place to chime in, in response? I really don't know. Maybe not the way I did. I think Zach's response was a little bit better. I just know that people who work in customer service are limited in how they respond. I don't have that limit, but I am aware I still need to respond in love.
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M

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When it comes to people's lives and relationships that could be affected by the dangers of screen capture for all the reasons I've already gone into.....then yes, i think being emotional about it is acceptable.
I cannot re-iterate enough that this is not just a software discussion, this is mostly about people's marriages. Covenant Eyes profess to of set this company up to protect relationships. This is the first and foremost priority.
I think you are not thinking at all of any consequences this might have on others just because it might suit you. Like CE, I believe it's an irresponsible view to over look risks, or call them low risk like people are collateral
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Chance

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"then yes, i think being emotional about it is acceptable. "

On the contrary, I think outrage is an overrated emotion. People don't respond well to emotional language. This is pretty much the state of our political climate.  

"I think you are not thinking at all of any consequences this might have on others just because it might suit you."

And I don't think you are thinking at all of any consequences the current software may have on users. With things as they are, it is actually easier to keep things under the radar. There are a lot of ways, especially on mobile, for people to seek things out without being flagged. You're thinking of all these scenarios where the new CE won't work, but not thinking about, or at least not talking about, where the old CE falls short. 

"Covenant Eyes profess to of set this company up to protect relationships. This is the first and foremost priority. "  

CE has to do what they believe is best for the largest number of people. It's unrealistic for CE to try to make 100% of the people 100% happy, but not expect any of the customers to make any changes themselves. You're convinced CE is going to ruin someone's marriage, where I listed different options someone could do to work around this, but you think it's unrealistic for anyone to change anything at all. But the thing is... it IS someone's marriage. It's not unrealistic for someone to make changes for the sake of their marriage. Ultimately, CE is not responsible for someone's marriage, we are. Your point is, maybe people didn't have to make changes before, and they do now. Well, maybe. But maybe people had to make changes with the old software too. There are probably many people who would not have gotten a mobile device in the past (I literally know someone like this), but maybe he can now because of the more thorough accountability.

The thing is, I've been in the scenario you mentioned. I told my wife I had been addicted to porn over the last decade, and she was crushed. If screen accountability was around back then I think it would have helped even more. There was a couple of times where I did some "under the radar" stuff early on and SA would have caught it (I still confessed to my wife about it).  There would have been the possibility of an image showing up in my reports, and if that was an issue, we would have done one of the things I mentioned in this thread. 
(Edited)
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Chance

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""Covenant Eyes profess to of set this company up to protect relationships. This is the first and foremost priority. " 

I think you are confusing "protecting relationships" with "not getting your wife upset".

In the case you mention, where a questionable image could show up on your screen and possibly your report, you worry about that one image could ruin a relationship. Let's go the other direction - what if it's not one image but a bunch of images, and that person is looking at a bunch of different images on a normally "safe" site, like Facebook? Screen accountability, in my view, does a better job of handling the latter situation. It's not really "helping the relationship" if someone is able to view a bunch of questionable images under the radar, unless your view of "helping the relationship" is your wife not getting upset at you.

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M

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Ok, I don't think it's worth us continuing this. You seem bent on dissecting all of viewpoints like it offends you on behalf of covenant eyes. Some of which you're misunderstanding through this and going off on one. You seem quite qualified on everyone else's relationship and how they should be.
I have an opinion, which is shared by many. I've detailed the dangers and made my points. I stand by the effectiveness of the current CE for my life (clearly not so effective for yours). I don't have the need to have to convince you or anyone else who is happy to accept the changes.
All the best.
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Tom Park

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Does the screen capture tell you how long you have lingered on that image? I am afraid that a screen capture will occur as I am quickly trying to avoid an inappropriate image for me. Even swimsuits ads are something that can be on a benign web page but I would hate for my wife to be triggered and think that I am staring at those type of pictures. It is helpful for her to know that I left the picture in a second as opposed to minutes. Thank you.
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M

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That's precisely one of the concerns I am trying to point out here, the misinterpretation of this. I don't know the answer to this as every time I express my concern to Covenant Eyes I don't get any helpful info back. Just mostly about what your partner should be like.
Your point is interesting and would certainly go someway to alleviating a concern if there was info on how long that image was viewable.
However, that is still not enough for me. I seem to alone with the view that couples may not want to have to discuss images to put away any doubt, fear, hurt on a regular basis just because CE is snapping away, why should couples even have to deal with that unnecessarily?
For me prevention is there, it stops me from giving it a thought and my life is so much better for it. To now have to justify any misinterpretation to make sure my wife is ok is unhealthy.
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Tom Park

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Might I suggest an idea to CE that screenshots be taken only when someone has been viewing a particular site for a while. Eg for greater than 1 minute. Perhaps covenant eyes can only upload the screenshots that are duplicates since they are being taken every minute or so. That would be able to give and estimate to how long one was viewing an image.
(Edited)